One of the biggest debates in GD land is whether or not someone can be astrally initiated by a group. Currently the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn and its off-shoots is one of the main proponents of this technique. Basically it involves the temple performing a rite for a person who is unable to attend the main temple.The justification for this action is that
- It does everything that a normal initiation does.
- It was used in the original Golden Dawn.
- It helps those who would not be able, to contact the spirit of the order.
Firstly let us look at point two. If astral initiation was used within the GD there would be some evidence of it, unfortunately such evidence requires a leap of faith, not in the GD but in Astral initiation itself.
Going through the membership roles we find that there is only one actual member who was ever admitted by anything other than a standard 0=0. This was Emile Andrianyi who was admitted into the Ahathor Temple by post on 3 July 1895 0=0. There is no mention of this being an astral initiation. Another argument by the Astral Initiation people is that Sprengle gave Woodman, Westcott and Mathers a 5=6 grade astrally to enable them to set up the GD. However none of the paperwork seems to suggest this, the term was not mentioned in any of the Sprengle letters. Likewise neither did Westcott mention it in his diaries. Of course, you could argue that was because Sprengle was an invention of Westcott. Either way an Astral initiation at this point was not required or used.
So, if an astral initiation was taking place then where and when and why did it not leave a trace of paperwork? There are no records of astral initiations being performed, nor any members who are identified as being part of the GD who had their initiations astrally recorded. Nor is there any mention of the procedure being used in the various editions of by-laws, nor any diary notes from anyone saying that they had taken part in an astral initiation. While we have access to many different GD rituals, there are no recorded instructions for how to perform on.
Occam’s razor tells us that if all the evidence suggests that we have to assume that it is logical that the Golden Dawn did not perform astral initiations.
However there is some proof that towards the end of the the Ahathor Temple’s life, the Mathers were selling ‘ initiations’ to wealthy Americans. These people were not recorded Ahathor minute book. It is clear that people at the time considered this a scam and not really part of the tradition which had lasted many years without the concept.
Returning to the first point that astral initiation does everything that an ordinary initiation does. A physical initiation is an intensely emotional experience with physical and emotional reactions that have a deep impact on the person. Even the least psychically aware person reports being able to feel or see something thing. No in the case of an astral initiation, a person is supposed to be in a meditative state at the time of the initiation. For an initiation to have any impact, such a person should be able to feel something, if not at the immediate time, but in their dreams immediately afterwards. This would be the minimum for any 0=0 initiation. However the reports of people who have undergone astral initiations are unable to provide these sorts of experiences. Reports that I have received have been extremely nebulous or non-existent. The technical requirements for an astral initiation is that it should work on the astral, therefore I would expect to see a person pick-up symbolism of the astral temple (anything Egyptian or angelic) or feelings of loss of control or darkness. Maybe even the odd rising sun our two. However what reports I have seen have included comments which were so nebulous that they are more likely to be psychosomatic or wish-self-fulfilment.
“I felt a lot of power… (could you be more specific?) no just power.?
“I felt my consciousness shift. (In what way? Where to?) I don’t know really.?
Where people have said that they have seen definite symbols these have been general and probably not connected to the initiation rite.
One person said he saw a pyramid. This would have been of interest as the pillars do have pyramids on them. However he clarified this as saying it was a four sided ‘great pyramid’ which was huge.
Another said he saw a dove flew above him. This was interesting as the falling of the holy spirit could be indicative of the Heirophant moving between the pillars. However since this person didn’t think that the dove meant anything more than being a symbol of peace this is unlikely to be anything specifically GD.
The other issue is that people who have been initiated should have some connection with the order and work within it. I am inclined to believe that the drop out rate of astral initiates would be considerably higher than those who are initiated in a group.
So finally we come to point three, that it provides a person with a connection to a working group that they would not otherwise had. This is clearly true, but in my opinion any link would appear to be administrative rather than spiritual. A real initiation takes place when the person is ready. Sometimes that will involve being in the right place and the right time. One thing that I have found interesting is that people have moaned like crazy online that there is no temple around them when most people are aware of at least one. My assumption is that many people have not really looked hard enough, too lazy to travel a bit, or are not ready for a real temple to open its doors to them.
Astral waves 
December 4, 2005 at 9:03 pm
[…] Can you be initiated astrally into the Golden Dawn? […]
December 4, 2005 at 11:25 pm
Gurdjieff, for example, mentions Self Initiation as the only true initiation. And Socrates could be taken as a Self-Initiate, beacuse the authorities of the Ancient Mysteries allegedly said he was the wisest man alive in Greece, and he was supposedly not an initiate. And many mystics in different traditions could be somehow seen as self initetes, but Astral Initiation is another thing entirely.
The Theosophists believed in astral (or mental) initiations, but the candidate was supposed to be able to consciously “travel” in his astral or mental body to a temple were Masters would initiate him. He would have to live through and perfectly remember what was happening! Of course, we might doubt that initiations of this sort were ever experienced by theosophists, but if they did, I would think them genuine. The EOGD system, on the otherhand, seems bogus to me.
I do believe in the power of a blessing of a holy man, and I do beleive that might traverse space, but its not an initiation (because it depends only on the will of the blesser) and, with all due respect, I kind doubt EOGD officers are saints or holy men.
December 5, 2005 at 2:55 am
One more thing, Nick. You know how EOGD always argues that and Initiation is not Theatre and is all about the astral (forgetting, as you say, the importance of basic psycological and emotional impact!)? Well, actually, ancient Drama copmes directly from the Dyonisian and Eleusinian Mysteries, and Tragic Festivals continued to a sacred ceremony and a sacred experience for the Athenians, which is, actually comparable to intiation ceremonies (especially masonic high degrees where only a few of the candidates participate, and most are just onlookers!).
I bet no one in ancient Greece could say that if the director mentions the name of an Athenian citizen that was out of town, before the perfomance of a Tragedy, would ‘astrally” experience the awe and pity that the tragedy inspired, and the psycologically healthy Catharthic effect of actually seeing the sacred perfomance!
The word esoteric, comes from the Lectures Aristotle gave to his students… The most famous extant “esoteric” treatise of Aristotle, is his commentary on Tragedy and its Cathartjhic or Purifying effect. In fact, it was so “esoteric” he did not even write it. What we have are his students’ notes.
So I say, Yes, initiation is sacred drama in the best sense of the term, and being there, experiencing the awe of the actual perfomance is essential. it might not be all there is to it, but it certainly is a very important part 9if not, it would only be a blessing, and we’d all have much fewer lines to memorize!)
December 5, 2005 at 7:26 am
“Can you be initiated astrally into the Golden Dawn?”
It really depends on what you mean. Physical initiations have an astral component. But if you mean do I think it is possible for someone to initiate you into the 0=0 grade of the Golden Dawn without you being there I would say that it is unlikely. I would say that it would take a supremely good magician (angelic being, or secret chief) to be able to do that. I do not think that simply performing the ritual with a stand-in is enough
December 5, 2005 at 7:35 am
“The Theosophists believed in astral (or mental) initiations, but the candidate was supposed to be able to consciously “travel? in his astral or mental body to a temple were Masters would initiate him.”
Which goes to show that even by the rules of “astral initiation” the way it is being done in most groups is completely wrong as it requires a high level of experience before the candidate can do it.
December 5, 2005 at 11:52 am
As someone who has been initiated (physically) into the EOGD I know alot of people who were astrally initiated. I can tell you that from my own experience that most of the people who were astrally initiated left the group within the first 6 months. The EOGD initiated an average of 10 people (2-3 physically present and the rest were astral) per month but there were not too many of those who ever became active participants of the online classes or the private forum. The ones that do stay usually have some severe psychological issues such as one member who was on anti-psychotic medication or another who was a recovering alcoholic. So if we were to take into consideration the drop-out rate of astral initiates and take a look at the ones that actually stay to work with the EOGD I would say that astral initiation does not work and the only people who would defend and promote it have a stake (financial or otherwise) in the groups that perform this bogus and irresponsible practice of astral initiation.
December 5, 2005 at 11:53 am
As someone who has been initiated (physically) into the EOGD I know alot of people who were astrally initiated. I can tell you that from my own experience that most of the people who were astrally initiated left the group within the first 6 months. The EOGD initiated an average of 10 people (2-3 physically present and the rest were astral) per month but there were not too many of those who ever became active participants of the online classes or the private forum. The ones that do stay usually have some severe psychological issues such as one member who was on anti-psychotic medication or another who was a recovering alcoholic. So if we were to take into consideration the drop-out rate of astral initiates and take a look at the ones that actually stay to work with the EOGD I would say that astral initiation does not work and the only people who would defend and promote it have a stake (financial or otherwise) in the groups that perform this bogus and irresponsible practice of astral initiation.
December 5, 2005 at 4:40 pm
I’ve had the pleasure of being initiated physically, long-distance (astral), and through Self-Initiation. I can say of the three that the least that affect me on any level was the long-distance initiation. I did have a mild case of dreams which had Anubis make an appearance a couple of days after my long-distance 0=0 initiation, but nothing more really. With both my physical and self-initiation I had a much more profound emotional affect.
Likewise, I disagree with certain groups that claim that these astral (long-distance) initiations were common place within the original Golden Dawn. I have never seen the evidence to support the claim. Nor can I think that Westcott, Woodman, and Mathers received some astral initiation as founders of the GD in the first place. As high ranking members of both the Masons and the SRIA, it is most likely that they simply claimed the title of 7=4. At some point further along the line, they may have tried to put each other through the various grade initiations, which would be similar to self-initiation, but this is purely speculative as there is no evidence to support this either.
The bottom line, is that self-initiation works on all levels of initiation. It provides a phyical place and energy, it works on the astral, as the initiate through working the material builds up the astral component, and finally it works on an etheric level by implanting the symbols of the current within the sphere of sensation of the person undergoing the SI. This is especially true of those that have made all of the needed tools and temple furniture for their SI, as making those is a meditation into the symbolism and function of the tool in question, which helps the SI person to better link to the energies of the GD current.
Anyway, that’s my two cents worth.
December 7, 2005 at 4:22 pm
Greetings in Light,
There is a lot of misguided information from those who have an axe to grind against the Largest Golden Dawn Order world wide that offers Astral Initiation to its’ long distance members.
For those who understand the invisible worlds of Qabalah, they are the ones who are the most powerful aspiring magi. They are the ones that can truly commune with the Archangels and are able to understand the Divine Spirit working at all times throughout the hiearchy.
Those who are trapped in Assiah are the ones that are most weekest in the Work. For them, it they can’t see it, it doesn’t exist at all. This is why they are against it and sound most silly to a true adept. They are the armchair magicians of today. Whereas, those who can see and/or feel Divine beings and the Divine world of luminaries are the ones that elevate in their Great Work.
The Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn has a large crossection of people who are both initiates and adepts. The crossection is vast and ranges from business professionals, trades, people, government workers, students, stay at home moms, retired people along with many others who have career jobs. The adepts are truly great people who are very helpful and approachable. I have yet to see anythings short on excellence with the EOGD in all my years.
Please take all the negative propoganda against Astral Initiations with a large cube of Salt.
En Lumena
December 8, 2005 at 1:41 pm
En Lumena,
>Please take all the negative propoganda >against Astral Initiations with a large cube >of Salt.
I don’t think anyone can call it propaganda when it is based on truth. There has never been any proof to show that the historic Golden Dawn or the Alpha et Omega ever performed astral initiations.
>I have yet to see anythings short on >excellence with the EOGD in all my years.
I was once a member of the EOGD and I personally disagree that they do not have any problems. I am sure this is a matter of personal opinion but has really nothing to do with the subject at hand which is about Astral initiations.
>Those who are trapped in Assiah are the >ones that are most weekest in the Work. For >them, it they can’t see it, it doesn’t >exist at all. This is why they are against >it and sound most silly to a true adept.
The discussion isn’t about whether or not magic can work at long distance. The discussion is about if initiation ceremonies can work long distance where there is no way to infuse the physical symbols into the aspirant’s sphere of sensation and if the technique of astral initiation was ever used by the original GD or any of its offshoots. From the evidence that I and others like Mr. Farrell have seen there have been no records of astral initiations.
>They are the armchair magicians of today.
I disagree. I wouldn’t call Mr. Farrell, Frater ImHotep, or others who have spoken against astral initiations as armchair magicians. I wonder what Pat Zalewski thinks of astral initiations.
I won’t even comment on the rest of this reply which is filled with logical fallacies just like the EOGD’s website.
>Whereas, those who can see and/or feel >Divine beings and the Divine world of >luminaries are the ones that elevate in >their Great Work.
>There is a lot of misguided information >from those who have an axe to grind against >the Largest Golden Dawn Order world wide >that offers Astral Initiation to its’ long >distance members.
December 9, 2005 at 12:35 am
Interesting Post En Lumena. I would have to disagree about an axe to grind. I don’t have one of those, nor do I think of myself as an armchair magician. I do think of myself as something of a scholar on the GD as well as a serious student of the GD system. The same can be said for Nick Farrell or Imhotep, or several others that say that these astral initiations are not verifiable, nor where they done in the original GD or AO or SM after the 1903 Schism in the regular sense. There is no evidence for “astral” or long-distance initiation from those orginal bodies.
Does long-distance (astral) initiation work? Well, I would say that at best it would be dubious. Again, no two persons undergoing any initiation experience them exactly the same way, whether that initiation is physical, self-initiation, or long-distance.
My concern, and most whom disagree with long-distance initiation, is that there is no way to verify that the person being initiated is actually receiving the energy due to the gap between the initiating body and the candidate. The same can be said for doing a long-distance working for healing of a person. It is hoped that the energy raised goes to the person in question, but it is hard to verify.
I suppose that it is possible for a skilled candidate to undergo a long-distance initiation and can reach out and grab the energy that is supposed to be directed at them, but not all initiates are experienced at that level when undergoing these long-distance initiations.
The student that enters the GD community should not be more hoodwinked than is absolutely necessary, and is entitled to know or learn what is offered by the various groups, orders, and independent temples within the GD community that have an internet presence. Not all GDers agree on every aspect of the work, and there is always room of disagreement within the community without being negative, and hopefully to the edification of those that are less experienced and learned from those that are more experienced and learned.
In LVX Fraternitas
December 9, 2005 at 6:15 am
I honestly think no one here can say that Astral Initation doesn’t work without going through one.
To me, it seems this is an individual choice. The idea that people left an Order cause they were astral initiates doesn’t mean a thing, there is no concrete evidence. Put yourself in the shoes of an astral initiate, with no where to go build relationships with people who can help support them. I would feel much less chance to go through such a strange cirriculum without people to meet. That can be a contributing factor.
You never know, just like you can never really know another person’s experience by asking them.
To me, logically, it all comes down to personal experience. I, for one, would want a physical one though, just cause it’s my choice to have one and I personally think it would be a better experience. But that’s my choice. 3 years ago I almost did an astral initiation, but didn’t due to other circumstances. That was my wish and choice then. Why should we condemn someone who chooses to have it done astrally? If they read about the EOGD on the internet, I’m sure they read about how astral initiation does not work. Besides, I’m sure anyone who takes this work seriously will GET a physical one at some point just to be sure.
How many of you that have responded have gotten an astral initiation?
December 9, 2005 at 6:30 am
Actually the EOGD is not the only order that offers such initiations. I for one do not have an axe to grind against the order either. All I have been doing is sitting recording the results of what people tell me. I have yet to see someone who could report anything that indicates they have experienced anything useful.
As has been said above, astral initiations were done in various occult groups and the people who received them were high level initiates who went onto the astral plane to receive them. They were not carried out in a ritual manner as being suggested in some of the modern GD groups.
December 29, 2005 at 12:42 am
I’d be interested to know which other Order offers astral initiations? I’m not familiar with any. Replies can be sent to the above email address.
September 30, 2007 at 8:31 am
I find this topic very interesting. I am currently debating the option of an astral initiation with the EOGD. I live very far away from any temple (middle east) and it would be very difficult for me to find the time and money to attend a physical initiation. Such comments as… “My assumption is that many people have not really looked hard enough, too lazy to travel a bit, or are not ready for a real temple to open its doors to them”…are really a bit harsh don’t you think? I’m sure there isn’t a person out there that wouldn’t prefer to have a physical initiation if given a real chance.
Until I make a final decision, I thank you all for your point of views, and help in assisting me in finding my path.
February 7, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I joined the Esoteric Order of the Golden Dawn on August 2nd, 2005. I was accepted, which is not surprising, since I have a squeaky clean history in life, so no reason for them to question my integrity as an individual. I paid $120.00, which was for the first year’s dues and was to include my grade materials, an astrology chart and some other things, which don’t come to mind right now. I was to be assigned a proctor and given a magical name of some kind and also a password to be able to join the online study group.
I was allegedly astrally initiated on 8/2/05, having been sent the instructions of what I should do during the time of the initiation. Thing is, a month went by and I received nothing from them in the mail and no further emails with a password or the rest. I wrote, asking about what happened, and was apologized to by the person who had sent me the instructions (his name is Dan something). He told me that the yearly “Power Week” celebration had just happened and that I probably got lost in the shuffle. He assured me that he would promptly look into getting my materials to me. A few weeks later, still nothing.
I called the Temple numerous times, leaving messages for someone to get back to me and emailed Dan several more times, with no response whatsoever. The website email address always bounces back emails with a mailer daemon. Finally I emailed Dan and told him that if the order didn’t want me as a member, for whatever reason, that they could at least refund my money, seeing as I never received a thing from them. But still there was no reply to my calls or emails. I have all the email correspondence saved, in case I am ever asked to verify my claims of being ripped off by this organization.
It seems to me that this order is guilty of internet fraud, if nothing else, so I cannot recommend them to anyone interested in studying with a mystery school. I don’t have a strong opinion on the subject of astral initiation, as I went though a self initiation in the mystery school I now belong to. But clearly the E.O.G.D. is a pretty flaky organization in general, so if someone wants to be part of a valid Golden Dawn group, this one should be passed on. If they can’t even get it together to make their site email work or get someone to return calls, then what does that say about them?
By May of 2006 I gave up all hope of getting the E.O.G.D. to respond to me or return my money and joined the Builders of the Adytum instead. I am very happy with it, have always been responded to and have always received my study materials in a timely fashion. I am also a very active member in the study group and Proanos nearest me. At least there are a few orders out there that are on the up-and-up.
August 4, 2009 at 11:02 am
emm. funny
December 17, 2009 at 8:17 pm
я думаю: неподражаемо…
February 4, 2011 at 6:19 am
There are several esoteric and mystery schools that I know of that offer Self-Initiation with mail-order lessons and whose members seem to derive spiritual benefit. Among them include AMORC, BOTA, and Confraternity of the Rose Cross. I don’t see self-initiation as any better or worse than Astral initiation. All of these Esoteric groups claim that the Masters of their respective orders also give the initiations on the Inner planes.